‘When lawyers speak, the nation listens, and the rulers also listen’

The Tanganyika Law Society elected its new president Tundu Lissu for a one-year tenure. The run-up to the election, which were held in Arusha on March 18, were marred by controversy, with the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Affairs Dr Harrison Mwakyembe threatening to de-register the bar association that has existed for 63 years in the event Mr Lissu, an opposition Chadema heavyweight, was elected to the post.

The Citizen’s Special Correspondnet Emmanuel Muga spoke to Tundu Lissu after being sworn-IN. Excerpts:

Question: Most people had predicted your win but not by over 80 per cent. Were you surprised by overwhelming endorsement you received from your colleagues?

Answer: I was not surprised at all, because I think I read the mood of the voters fairly correctly. I sensed that lawyers were tired of being disrespected, being taken for granted. I sensed that the time was ripe for a rebellion and so I wasn’t entirely surprised by what I saw and what happened at Simba Hall in Arusha.

Question: You announced your candidature in the last minutes, when actually your colleague Lau Masha was already in the race. You did not trust Masha could do the job

Let me say this. We did not plan it with Lau Masha. In fact Lau Masha had approached me way back in January to tell me that he wanted to contest TLS presidency. I gave him my word that he had my full support. I had never wanted to be president of the law society at all, until I heard the president make that statement on the Law Day. I heard the president saying that lawyers should be arrested if they represent the drug dealers and so on and so forth. But two days prior to that we had passed the Legal Aid Act, which entitles any criminal defendant to legal aid paid for by the state. And here was the president stating in public that those lawyers who are required by law to defend these criminals also be arrested, I said this cannot be.

But the president said it as a joke

I have not heard anyone saying he was joking. I have not heard his spokesman Msigwa saying the president was joking. The only person I heard saying that the president was joking is then TLS president John Seka. And I know that Mr Seka has never been spokesman of President Magufuli. The president made the statement that he meant. Then I decided I wasn’t going to keep quiet. I wrote a statement and circulated it on the social media condemning what the president had said. And then some young lawyers approached me telling me about the upcoming election, they I asked me why I couldn’t run, and I said why not. And then it took off from there.

Mr Lissu you already have numerous platforms you could use to speak out. Why do you think this new platform will make a difference

Those who wanted to stop me from becoming the president of the law society are well aware that being president of the law society will make a huge difference for one reason. When lawyers speak out, the nation listens and when the nation listens the rulers also listen.

Do you think the government and the judiciary will listen to Tundu Lissu-led TLS, given the government’s reaction to your candidature

I don’t want to prejudge, I don’t want to foreclose the debate and I don’t want to close the door of dialogue when I have not knocked at it yet. We intend to cooperate with the executive, with the judiciary as we have always done. What we are not going to do is to keep silent when the government commits mistakes or ignores legality, that’s the difference. In all other areas we will do all that we have always done. With the judiciary, the courts cannot do without lawyers.

The relationship is of equals, there is no bar without the bench, and the judges will not be able to be judges if there are no lawyers to assist them, we need each other.

We will pay a courtesy call to the Chief Justice, we will seek to solve lawyers’ problems with the courts and with the government where matters involved call for assistance from the government.

Will this dialogue involve a sober Tundu Lissu or a Tundu Lissu we are used to, whose approach is always confrontational

The opposite of sober is a drunken TLS. If being sober means a TLS that hobnobs with the great and good, you are not going to see that. If sobriety means being afraid of taking the bull by its horns that is not being sober. That is trying to cover cowardice and inaction with a veneer of sobriety. We will be a TLS that is alive to issues of the day facing the legal profession, the nation and the members.

You are also aware that your decision to run for the post created what some people viewed as an earthquake. You have heard Minister Harrison Mwakyembe threatening to de-register the law society, is this the price the lawyers should pay for electing you

Actually it was not an earthquake, it was simply a storm in teacup. In my inaugural speech, I said it is time to close ranks, lawyers in Tanzania should not allow anybody to stifle the autonomy of their profession, we should tell Dr Mwakyembe and his president that TLS is off-limit.

But it is in their powers to scrap the TLS by simply taking a bill to parliament seeking to repeal the TLS Act.

It is not in their powers at all. Dr Mwakyembe did not pause to think before saying what he said. General Idi Amin who ruled Uganda with iron fist for eight years did not trifle with the Uganda Law Society, he could have but he didn’t. The Boers in South Africa allowed Mandela and Oliver Tambo to practice law.

If you go anywhere in the world may be with exception of North Korea, nations world over have bar associations.

Communist China has a vibrant bar association, we are going to be the first to disband the bar association because someone we dislike has been elected president of the bar association for one year. By that statement, Dr Mwakyembe should have been fired by next hour, this is somebody who will soil Magufuli’s legacy completely. The law society precedes Tanzania, it has been in existence before Tanzania was born and yet we have a minister who also happens to be a lawyer, saying in public that he was going to disband it.

That said however, you must also understand that CCM has the numbers in parliament to carry it through

Something tells me that these cowardly fellows are not going to take the bill to parliament. If it comes to that, then I will appeal to the lawyers to close ranks, to pay any price, to bear the burden and make sure they protect their society. The battle will be everywhere: in the media, in courts, in parliament and on streets.

There is a genuine concern though that you, being a Chadema top politician, will use the bar association to promote yourself politically and also promote interests of your party.

I did not stand for election as a Chadema candidate for TLS presidency. I stood as a TLS candidate who happens to be a Chadema member. I am not where I am because of TLS. I am who I am because of my own personal struggles and because of the people I have associated with over many years, the people who have inspired me, people such as my brother (Advocate Aluthe Mughwai). I did not seek TLS presidency for use as a political platform. I have many platforms that are more effective than the presidency of TLS. My presidency of TLS is important only for one thing, it will raise issues that TLS should have been raising from the time it was established.

Indeed you have many platforms, which makes you a busy man. You are a member of parliament, Chadema Attorney General, the opposition chief whip, an advocate with clients to represent, and much more. Will you find time to effectively execute the office of TLS president

when I started I didn’t think it was going to be easy on my family, my constituency and on my party. However this is also an additional challenge that needs also to be tackled.

The issues that TLS faces are also concerns to any member of parliament, me included. It is going to require a lot of my time and sacrifice on my family. I am prepared to give it my very best.

And finally you heard members complaining bitterly about affairs of the society. What reforms are you going to introduce

At the meeting I did not hear any member praising the TLS, that’s unprecedented.

Things start going wrong, when leaders acquire personal interest in continuing to lead the society, being in TLS it would seem a very lucrative job.

You gona hobnob with president, trot the globe and when you catch that disease, you continue jet setting.

I don’t want that, I travelled the globe more that a decade and half ago. I am tired of global travel, I want to so something for the country and am not going to tolerate any sloppy attitude amongst the staff.

We will sort out the financial mess, if needs be, we will fire those who need to be fired and hire who need to be hired. We need professional management of the society, we are not going to allow financial shenanigans any more.

The members have also complained about having to pay high fees for Continuing Legal education seminars. How are you going to lower the fees without compromising the quality of progressive legal education.

There are matters the members have complained bitterly about and I am going to review financial imposts that members make.

I suspect the Continuing Legal Education (CLEs) has become a money making racket. It is a system where you dangle the carrot of CLE to get members’ wallets. You threaten members that if they don’t part with their wallets they wont get the carrot. The carrot is not the continuing legal knowledge, the carrot is 10 points one has to att ain to be able to renew their practicing certificate.

It should no be like that. CLE should be just that.

Isn’t possible for instance to distribute materials through the Internet? To enable members access the materials at no cost? Do we have to hold the seminars in major towns?, Cant we take them to members wherever they are?, There are so many possibilities, members pay a lot of money to TLS. Cant we have a uniform scale of fees for CLE for members to know? why variations? I suspect it has become a royal mint, a money making scheme, certainly it cannot be allowed to continue like that.